Dream Maker + Romance Novelist Jo Speirs - Turning some of the hardest moments into the greatest outcomes (so far!)

Absolutely loved this conversation with Jo Speirs on the Dream Makers Podcast! Join me as we dive into Jo's incredible journey as an award-winning small-town romance author and chief line & copyeditor + proofreader at Nurturing Words.

We'll explore the creation process of Jo's debut novel, "Second Chance Love in Point Perry," and how it not only captured hearts but also earned her recognition in the romance writing community. From being a runner-up in the prestigious Romance Writers of Australia Valerie Parv Award to winning Favorite Debut Romance Author 2023, Jo's achievements are truly inspiring.

But it's not just about the accolades; Jo shares how she turned some of life's toughest moments into her greatest successes. She reminds us to always look for silver linings and to never settle for a life prescribed by others. With her editing business serving romance novelists and her own writing projects in the works, Jo embodies the spirit of living life authentically.

I was especially moved by Jo's story of transforming the seed of an idea into a tangible novel, despite facing uncertainty and doubt along the way. As an aspiring writer myself, she's a bloody good expander for me!! Her journey teaches us the importance of surrounding ourselves with supportive people and creating opportunities, even when they seem daunting.

Tune in to hear Jo's invaluable insights on editing your business and life to align with your heart and values. Her story is a powerful reminder that we all have the potential to create our own paths and turn our dreams into reality.

x CB

Follow Jo Speirs on Instagram here.

And remember, you can get your own copy of her book here!

Plus, don't miss out on a banging deal for personalised 1:1  CLARITY + UPGRADE mentoring (limited time offer) —act now and accelerate your path to success! x CB

Join PUSH THE MONEY BUTTON, pre-sale happening now, we kick off in June. Limited Spaces.

Transcript

claire: 1:10

All right. Welcome everybody to another episode of the Dream Makers Podcast at CB here. I'm super pumped to be here with Jo Spears. She is a romance novelist. I'm so excited about this. There's a big picture of your book behind you, Second Chance Love in Point Perry. And I think this is your debut novel. You're an award winning writer, which

Jo: 1:35

is so cool. And I said

claire: 1:37

to you as you popped up onto my Zoom, I'm so pumped to have this because in some ways you are living one of my dreams. So thank you, Joey, for being here on the Dream Makers

Jo: 1:46

podcast. Thank you, Claire. I'm really excited to have a chat to you today and share my story and how I got here because it was quite unorthodox. So yeah. Yeah, I

claire: 1:57

can't, I cannot wait to hear it. The first thing I need to say, and anyone who knows me knows this to be true. I'm obsessed with rom coms, I read rom coms all of the time.

Jo: 2:06

It is such a beautiful,

claire: 2:08

Check out for me. And I just, I love it. I love it. I love romance. So the first thing I'm going to say is let's hit that. What's the difference between a rom com and a romance novel? Can we go

Jo: 2:19

there? Romance novel is probably the overlying genre. And then within romance, we have all these little sub genres. So Rom com is one of the sub genres, so it's obviously like a romance, but it has a lot of comedy in it, so there'll be whether it's just funny things that happen to the characters, funny things they say, it's a book that has lots of laugh out loud, relatable moments, but obviously they still have the happy ending because that's, What a romance book is. But obviously, alongside rom coms, there's mine's a small town romance, so I don't have much, a little bit of humor in mine, but not a lot. You get yeah, historical romances, you get your cozy romances, which are like a bit of a mystery. You get fantasy, you get sci fi. So there's like this whole little sub genres of romance or different types of romance books you can get that actually sit under That banner to start with as well. But rom coms have really taken off in the last few years. I can remember back a few years ago when a friend of mine actually was pitching her story, she had a rom com and she was like, Oh, no one wants a rom com. Like they're just not very popular. And then all of a sudden, like bang they've just become so popular and I think particularly through COVID as well. And we're all looking for that escape and something to laugh at. I think we were all, we were going for the rom com, so we could actually get out of the, the funk that we were in by being in, lockdown and things like that. Yeah.

claire: 3:33

Oh, I just, I love all romance. And now that you described small town romance, I'm like, Oh, I've read lots of those as well,

Jo: 3:39

actually. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, they can be together as well. You can have a rom com that's also a small town romance, or you can have a small town romance that's also an historical romance. We can there's, you'll find there are lots of blended genres and things like that as well that kind of all blend together.

claire: 3:55

I love it so much. Let's talk about you making your dream a reality. Yeah. Can you just whatever you wanna share, there was a version of you before that was dreaming, ideating about being a romance novelist. Yeah. And you are now with an award winning novel.

Jo: 4:12

So tell us the story. And it's probably, I, and to be honest with you, I was actually never really dreaming to be a romance. It's a novelist at all. I grew up reading romance books, I grew up in a small country town and was always scouring the library for, Sweet Valley High books. And, I'd sneak a read of, Mums Meals and Boons always been a reader. And I left the country, moved over to Adelaide and I worked in travel. I, as A team leader at a big call center for quite a few years and then I had my kids and floated between a few different jobs and, but it wasn't really until my mum got cancer and she actually passed away and which was about nearly 10 years ago now and I, fell into a bit of a deep dark hole for a couple of years and then through surprisingly another Facebook community, I actually reconnected with a couple of ladies from the small town I grew up in and who obviously, knew me growing up and knew my mum and that kind of thing. And one of them actually just said to me, Jo, Why don't you write and get all of the shit out of your head? Because obviously, I was just, introvert, empath. I was just I was so loaded with all this emotional stuff. And that's how it all started. I just I started just doing some journaling. I did some blogging. And then I just, as authors, we often do we ask ourselves, the what if question, what would I do if this situation happened to me? And I suppose I was looking a bit at how my dad was going through the process of losing the love of his life. I thought, what would I do if I, lost my husband or my children? And would I want to find love again? How would people react to that? Would I go back to my hometown? And, that was how the, I suppose the seed of the story actually started. And, I just sat on that for a while and then I started writing, just writing the story and at that stage I actually had no idea how to write the book because, I read them but I don't know how to write them. So I went on this bit of a journey, a huge learning journey where I've gone, okay, I'll, learn how to write this book. And I joined up with the writers essay who at that stage were offering what they call the manuscript incubator. So it was a whole year and every month we would do a craft session about all the different components of a book. So it was, the product, the character art dialogue beginnings, endings, the whole gamut of how you actually write a story. And through that, I met another romance author, because there weren't actually very many of us doing this course. And she introduced me to the Romance Writers of Australia, which is a non profit community of romance writers, and who, which I didn't really know a lot about. And, she read some of my story and kind of said, look, I think you've, you've got a really good story here next year, come to Sydney at the conference and pitch your story. And I was at that stage. I was ah, okay. Yep. Yep. Sure. No worries. And cause I was never dreaming on anybody ever actually. Reading this story, I was like, I'll just write it to get it out of my head. And, that's it. Through that process, I go on, okay if this author who's, published four or five or six books in this genre, I think that I've got something there. Then maybe, I can go for it. And yes, the next year I went to Sydney at the conference, I pitched my story and it's a bit like speed dating. And, you. All the big publishers are there, there was the Harlequins, the Allen and Unwins, the, all the big five publishers were there that you could actually, you get seven minutes to sit in a big room and talk to them about your book. And it's very nervous, very nerve wracking. And they, once again were yep, that's, that sounds great. Can you send. Yeah, maybe script through and I'm not going on. Yeah, sure, sure. Meanwhile, I'm absolutely, packing my, packing it and going, Oh my God, I still don't know what I'm doing. So then I go, Oh, okay, no worry. So I, finish it up a little bit more and I sent it off and. Waited and waited, because, it's all very slow. Nothing actually goes very quickly. And about nine months later, I got this email. I got this email back from Harlequin, and they've gone. We're not in a position to offer you a contract, but here's some really great feedback. And which is really unusual, because normally they say, You're rejected or here's the contract but they were quite generous in saying, we think you should delete these chapters and can if you can do this with the rest of the book, we're happy for you to resubmit it and I'm not going, oh, okay. And at that stage, I was still really not confident at what I was doing. And my manuscript was about 110, 000 words. That was massive. So I sent it off to an editor. And. I'm getting to the story. Bear with me. Oh, I'm like laughing off every word. This is brilliant. So I sent it off to the editor and she sent it back and it came back with 70, 000 words. So she had deleted a lot of words and she was you're waffling, you did it, and I'm not going, oh, okay. But that sparked something in me where I've gone, I actually quite like this editing process. I liked You know, I was just really interested in and, I thought my grammar and punctuation was quite good, but, she had picked up a lot of things that I didn't realize weren't quite right. And then I thought the likelihood of me ever getting a contract for publishing this book is very small, but I really like this, this community and this kind of editing thing. So maybe I can become an editor because that would obviously pay more than giving book royalties. So I parked my manuscript at that stage and I went about learning how to become an editor. So I did some a lot of courses and all my training and that kind of thing. And then at the start of 2020, just as COVID was about to hit, I had a massive panic attack and which was quite serious. And that kind of sparked me, to go What the hell am I doing with my life and what do I want to do? And what I wanted to do was start my editing business. So I quit the job that I was doing and started my editing business at the start of COVID. It took me nine months to get a client cause that's, how it was. But through That time I had three years where I didn't look at my manuscript, but in that three years, I built my editing business. And I really, I learned the skills of what I needed to do with my manuscript as well. And then I picked it up and did what I needed to do. And I resubmitted it at the end of not last year, but the year before. So 22, I resubmitted back to Harlequin and then got a contract for it in February last year, and then came in September. That's the journey of the book and I suppose my editing business as well and like I said, I never, set out, I've never been one of those people that, can't stop in writing since I was three years old and always telling stories and that kind of thing. I was, I was always the quiet one and, never really had a story to tell. So it was just, it's just yes, it was just interesting how that's how. My journey's got to here and it's, it took that moment of my mum passing and me going, what the hell am I doing with my life? I don't have a career. My husband has a really good business. I just didn't know what I was doing. So it just went into a totally different direction. And yes, I've come out the other side and I feel like now I'm actually in the place where. I need to be like, I'm felt like it's, 50 years to get here. I'm in the spot now where I'm really, I feel really comfortable with where I am. And with, 2 businesses running side by

claire: 10:49

side. Yeah thank you for sharing that. Sorry, I've got. So many questions that come from that, but the big thing that's landing is it's these pivotal moments that we have in our life. Obviously, with the loss of your mum and then the years later with having a panic attack, we have these moments and they're like, what in the hell am I doing with this one precious life? That I have just really honoring you in that and in each moment I'm going to do something different here.

Jo: 11:24

Yep. Yep. And I think, I've always been a bit of a believer as well, but in, in something, when something bad happens, I always try to look for a silver lining. So I think I've learned now that, good things can happen from bad things. Or you can make good things happen when bad things happen as well. Yeah, and those two moments would just have been really key in the last, nearly the last 10 years really big moments of, change for me both as as a person and mentally and, physically and yeah, but, but I, I do, I just, it's it's bittersweet that, I wouldn't be here if, if mum was still alive, I wouldn't be here talking to you because I never had the dream to, to Being an author or be a writer, before she passed away, I had a little photography business going because I love photography. So I was dabbling in that and just going, oh I really enjoy photography. So I'll just dabble in that, while my kids are at school and that kind of thing. Yes, that was definitely a big pivot. And obviously with the with my panic attack as well, I've been trying to, Get my business up and running and write more, but, it was just, there were lots of things going on that, then obviously triggered my panic attack as well. So that was like a really big wake up call for me, physically and, emotionally, mentally to go, this, like you said, it's that this one life and I've only got, this one life to live as well. Yeah, which was great. It was a big wake up call.

claire: 12:35

You must feel deeply proud of

Jo: 12:38

yourself. Yeah, I do. And, I still pinch myself, I I still look at the, the book cover and go, Oh my God I wrote that story, I write that. And oh my God, I got a contract with the biggest, one of the biggest publishers in the world. And, it's, this little country girl that, came from the country, had, I, Went to an area school I didn't have, I didn't go to uni or anything like that. And it's so it just really made me realize that anything, anything in life is possible as well with it. You don't need to take the life that everyone else prescribes. And that's been something that's been really big. That's come out in the last few years, even with my business as well. I don't need to do what everybody else is doing in their business. That's to, be successful as well. And I've really learned to stay on my own path. I can double in other things, but really, all my decisions now are coming back to what actually, Feels really right in my heart as well and for me not to do what everybody else is doing and that kind of thing because I tried that and I got burnt out and it didn't feel great. So I've gone, you know what yeah, I just need to, just do go things at my own pace and, do what feels right as well. That's been like a really big thing that's come out the last, I suppose the last, 12 months when I'm been juggling. Like an author business and an editing business, which is at two total different stages of, business, you've got a product and service and, it's been really tricky, but it's I think this year I'm feeling a lot calmer and, I'm on the right, back on the right track again.

claire: 14:02

The thing that's coming, I want to ask you around is where now do you feel like you've landed? This, what's your identity now? Like I'm a romance novelist and I've got the editing business. Tell us a bit about what's going on

Jo: 14:17

now. Yeah. So I suppose about probably about two years ago with my editing business, I had been doing it for long enough and I'd been in the romance writing community. For quite a while and people were, we all, obviously know each other over social media and that kind of thing. And I had made some really great networks and connections with some romance writers and, I've been to conferences and met people face to face. And I suppose I was, with a lot of my editing clients, cause I edit book for romance authors and I was really getting to know them and they were You know, just rebooking me in for their next two or three manuscripts as well. So I made the decision to, really niche down into that romance market. Because before then I was doing some nonfiction as well, like for women as well, because I really wanted to work with women and help women build their own profiles and those kinds of things. I've been doing some non fiction for women. I've been working just with some businesses and that kind of thing as well. And so I made the decision to really niche into the romance. So I edit for self publishing romance authors. So they're authors that, that either don't pitch or don't want to get a contract with a publisher. They actually do it all themselves. So they have to outsource and find their own editors. I've got to the stage now where I have such a lovely group of authors that just keep rebooking their work in, which is fantastic. So I've been able to ease back on the marketing and the bit, that kind of business side of it is really looking after itself now which has been great. And, but then last year I was so busy with my work and then I got the contract on top of it and I was just like a I made the decision then at the end of last year to wind back on my editing a little bit as well. I'm focusing more almost now on proofreading, which is like the very final step before a book gets published. Once again, yeah, once again, self publishing. Authors, I need to have that final check as well, because, as readers, we don't want to download a book and see typos and stuff like that as well. And that's allowed me to have more time to write, but it's also allowed my brain to have a little bit of a break as well. Because when I edit, I deep dive into somebody else's work and I live and breathe that story and those characters for 4 or 5 weeks. And it was really hard to pull myself out of that on a weekend and then try to find the mental and creative capacity to actually write my own work. So with proofreading, it's a bit easier to switch on and switch off. It's, a lot more of just reading rather than, trying to see how I can improve a story as well. So going into this year, I'm definitely feeling a lot calmer. I've been able to write a more, write a lot more, I've written a small Christmas novella already this year and I'm, working on book two as well. So it's really been able to give me. Days or a couple of days in a row where I can go, great, I can really get into my writing today and okay, Friday, get stuck into a proofreading book for my client. So it's really allowed me some flexibility to try to balance both things that I love doing as well. I'm feeling in a really comfortable place, but it was, but last year was really hard and I think I've learned. Along the way with, some of the big things that have happened that I, I need to look after my health and my mental health as well to be able to step back and realize when things are not, going great and I need to actually wind back on things that I'm doing and it's hard. That's hard, I had to break up some clients, which was really hard, that's. That's just the nature of the business as well. Yeah. I

claire: 17:19

hear what I'm hearing in this thread of it's a beautiful shout out to do less but better and really get to, I think we are forever in being given an invitation to get to the heart of what's essential for us. That's what I mentor people with. How to get to the heart of what's essential for you. So you can do less but better, but bring the dream to reality. But it feels sustainable. And I hear you're like. You are bit by bit forever. We grow, evolve, expand. And now how do I make that sustainable? And yeah kudos to you for like just constantly being in that process of, I now need to let some of these things go.

Jo: 17:54

Yeah. Yeah. And I got to the stage last year as well, where, I was really looking at, could I put somebody on, could I employ someone to sit under my, nurturing where Banner and do take on that extra work as well. And then I I spent, I spent 10 years in a call center managing people. I didn't want to go back to managing people, even if it was, having someone on a contract or whatever. And I thought, something that I've really worked hard on is with my brand, it's always people come to my brand because they want me to help them, not somebody else. And so that's, I had a really big think about that as well. And I was like, you know what, I think I just need to keep it. Keep it as me and keep it where I can actually manage it as well, but still manage my client expectations and things that as well. I think like last year was a really big turning point and, me really asking some really hard questions of, what do I want once again, moving forward and, being able to manage both businesses, but that, also the longevity of it as well, that, I could be doing this for another, 20 or 30 years or whatever, but also wanted something that I could take with me, if, wherever we go, as my, my oldest son's about to finish year 12. So we know in the next few years, it's going to be some changes with, the dynamic in the house and, things that as well. So it's really wanted something that I could, take with me. Thanks. Bye. Bye. That would be like a calming thing for me in the next few years where I knew that I could always come back to this and or I could take it wherever we were going as well. And that was a bit easier to manage. Yeah, I

claire: 19:15

love that. I think that when you were talking earlier, it's like, Oh, now I know why we got magnetized to each other because there's this conversation that's I'm going I've learned or I'm learning along the way. To not be looking at about how everyone else is doing it and not look at other people's measures of success. But this is my one chance at my precious life. How do I want to do it? How does this work for me? What does success feel like for me? I want to have peace and I hear that you said peace. I'm like, I want to feel more peace and more grounded and have the choice and have the power. And so we can so easily get carried away and get on the train, particularly with social media and everything around us. What is everybody else doing and what are their measures of success versus this is my dream. This is my life. This is, and I really want to do it my way. I really honoring that in you. Yeah.

Jo: 20:06

Be so proud of. Yeah, and I think I really had to look as well when you said the word success and, particularly as authors, in this industry, we, we look at other authors success, we see, constantly, I'm the number one author or I'm a USA, best selling author or I'm a six figure author or whatever. And she go, wow, how did I do that? And you look a bit closer at how they do it. And then, and that's how I got to the stage where I'm going. I can't do what that author does, that doesn't fit right with me or whatever. And yes, I think, for me, I really had to look at what I would be happy with my success as well. And it's, it's not a, it's not a, industry where, we don't get paid a huge amount of money in royalties and that kind of thing, unless you do become really successful. Really successful ads, you sell a lot of books, you sell a lot of copies. But it's also a long game as well. I've been in, I've been in the game for, six months, so to speak, with a book. I also know that, there's the long term success as well, but the lucky thing with books is that once they're out, they're always out. My book will be, Available for so many years to for so many, new readers and that kind of thing as well. Plus, all the others that I hope to write. So it's also, playing the long game as well. And but also having the energy to get through to the long game and not burn myself out. Early, not, I don't want to go too hard too early.

claire: 21:21

And it sounds to me like the universe gave you a nice early lesson

Jo: 21:24

around that. It did. And it was funny because after I had my book launch last year which I likened to a bit of a wedding. You have the high of the wedding and then you have the honeymoon and then you have the reality check when you come home. I found that reality check really hard because everybody was like, when's your next book? When's your next book? When can I get your next book? And I felt so much pressure that I actually I think I had a little bit of a mental break. I was like, my God, I just stop pressuring me. And I actually, I didn't write, I think there was quite a lot of time, I don't think I write anything until the end of last year, because there was all this pressure of when are you going to, when are you going to and I think that's where I've gone, you know what, I'm not doing this whole, go hard early. I'm going to like, just go, you know what. It'll come just stick with me, it'll, you'll get another book, eventually, it might be a little bit longer, it'll come. It's, I've had lots of, there's been lots of lessons. Along the way of particularly the last year or so with everything. Yeah.

claire: 22:14

And I feel thank you for all your honesty around this. I feel like what keeps coming through to my mind is like success is going to bed with a sense of peace at night that I'm doing the thing I'm here for, that I'm honoring my values. Yeah. Taking care of myself and my family and yeah, I'm putting energy and effort into the dream, but doing it my way that feels like a measure of success. That's

Jo: 22:36

something to be proud of. Yeah. And it was interesting because I was up in Brisbane recently when I got my award. And one of the the speakers there was an author by the name of Kathy Maxwell. So she writes historical romance. She's very, one of the, she's one of those USA, bestselling authors, sold a gazillion copies and all that kind of thing. And yeah. There was one thing that she actually said that really resonated with me, and she's as authors, don't put yourself under pressure. All you have to do is is just find your one next reader. And because for so long after my book came out last year, I was just scrambling to find people to bu my book of written a book and people outside of my friends and family but once, and she's you just have to find your one next reader. Just find reader and that's all you know. And if it takes you a week, then perfect. If it takes you a day, there's like just, you just You don't need to stress, it will come eventually. So it's that was something that stuck with me.

claire: 23:26

I love that. It's beautiful. And also I'm sitting here going you found your next reader for today because as soon as I get off, I'm going to figure out how to order one of these books because I really want to read it. There's so many. That's so cool to

Jo: 23:38

then know the person who wrote the letter. That's really good. So job done for today, my friend. Oh, there's so many things I want to

claire: 23:47

ask you about. But so the next thing I'll ask is let's talk about the process of writing. You talked a little bit about the process of writing this book, the one that you got the award, Second Chance, I'm a Point Perry. It's very handy having it back there. Sorry. But you're now writing another book. So can you just talk about what, structure or system that you've created that works for you so that you're, because you're running a business and a family and also writing a book. So I would love to hear about that.

Jo: 24:16

Yeah there pretty much isn't any of that and once again, and that's totally fine, that works for me. That is me being in my lane and not trying to be anybody else. So I learned a few years ago I went to a conference in Fremantle and we did the Have you heard of the Gallup Strengths, where you do, yes, so there was a lady who was running a session around that, but specifically for authors, so from that I actually learned that, which I knew anyway, like I'm an empath, I'm a very deep thinker, I'm not one of those authors that can get up at five o'clock in the morning, splash out 300, 000 words or whatever, and that's great and get on with my day. So I process things a lot. I think deeply mull over things. And then I'll go, yeah, I think I've worked that out and I'll sit down. And right so this morning I wrote for an hour because I had the next scene in my head I could visualize it and I was ready to go. It wasn't there yesterday. I faffed around yesterday trying to write it and I couldn't write it. I've learned what works for me as well. And at the moment, it's me just grabbing pieces of time when the story's ready for me to write as well. Yeah, And with my work as well, I've I know the days when I don't have any client work. So this week I haven't had any client work until hopefully today. My client's meant to send me something today. So I know that I've had some time this week as well. So because I know that I had this time, I really spent the last, on the weekend really just Mash out what's happening with the story. I tend to try and do a lot in my head and and then I sit down at night as well. And I'm pretty much what they call a pantser, which is, I just write by the seat of my pants. There's anything I probably because they call it a plotter or a pantser. So plotter will actually sit down and plot the story to pretty. Either each chapter or, scenes and those kind of things, and they'll see and they'll write as per whatever they've plotted. I tend to be a pancer where I know a few key things that I want to happen, and then I'll just sit down and just see where the story takes me, where the characters take me. I tried to visualize it in my head as well. I know my, the first book I was able to see it almost like a movie in my head as well. So I could see what was going to happen in the next scene of the movie and it allowed me to. To write, but also for my first book as well, when I write that, I didn't have my editing business. So I was pretty much, I was taking the kids to school, going to the Walkerville library. I would spend five hours there just writing this story and I'm going to pick up my kids. And that was my day. So this one, the next books have been a little bit different because I've really had to either, I try and write around my work, my family, those kinds of things as well. So I don't have a, I don't have a structure, I don't have a plan, I pretty much, I wing it. And that's, I love it though, but I hear,

claire: 26:51

yeah, what I hear in that also is You have an idea about the book, but the book is also going to start telling you what it wants

Jo: 26:59

to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll find, when you talk to a lot of authors as well, they'll say to you, Oh, the characters aren't talking to me or they are talking to me. I actually started writing what I thought would be book two in the Point Perry series. I probably had written about 15, 20, 000 words of that, but the characters just weren't talking to me. They were just going, I'm not ready. For the world to hear my story. But at the same time, the female character in what I was gonna use is book three was in my ear. She was going, I'm ready to tell my story, da. So I came what I thought was gonna be book two, and I've started on book three, which will now become book two. So it is just funny how sometimes the characters just come to you and they just wanna tell their story. And I think because I've, the stories that I'm writing, I I'm writing about things that. have happened to me, but I'm turning them into. There's general issues that, as the world we look at. So the first, the first thing in my Facebook is grief, where, I obviously write out of the, the grief of my mum. And the second book, I'm looking at body image issues and things like that as well, which is something that, I grew up with. With body image issues and still have them now, that whole weight thing or whatever. And that's the theme that's coming through for the character as well in this next book. Sometimes it's just, we were just writing about things that come to us and how our characters, talk to us and what they, what story they want to tell them. We then obviously spin it into a romance and, And then they have conflicts and then they have a happy ever after. Yeah, there's that, that, that structure.

claire: 28:27

So there is that structure there. I love it so much. And I'm listening to you thinking, man, you've got a gift because not everybody can do this. And not everybody is walking around thinking about, obviously when the way I would see it is you, Regardless, you've created some kind of energetic container or commitment that I'm going to write a book and then it starts to come out. So yeah, I'm really honoring that process in you. I am writing on like on the third iteration of a nonfiction book called Let Your Visions Be Bigger Than Your Bullshit. Yeah, I love it. Thank you. And. Yeah I'm probably, I have structure around it because obviously there's things from a business perspective or making a dream to reality perspective, things that I want to hit on, but the more that when I give it time, it's just evolving as I get in and do the writing and the structure that when I first started, I was creating containers of time on a regular, like a little bit each week. Yeah. And once I got the first. And I was like I, that doesn't work for me to do that anymore. And now I go, I'm just going away for two days. And so I've got away for two days. And how it works for me is I just I've created the space. Yeah, what I do in that, I'm either going to rest or write one of those things are going to happen and eat. Often I've gone to hang out with my sister, but she can't come this time. And and the way I tend to do it is I'll just set a 45 minute timer just so that I've created the container and whatever I do in there. Is what it is, but I'm also, I love hearing what you're saying, because it's just more permission to like, you have an idea of what the book's meant to be, but I think the book has a bit of its own identity that evolves over

Jo: 30:09

time. Yeah, absolutely. And. I love that you're writing as well. And that, that first draft, you call it a first iteration. We call it a shit. We call it a shitty first draft. Yes.

claire: 30:21

That's how I get most of my work done.

Jo: 30:25

Shitty first draft. Yeah. So that's and don't discount either like the time that you spend not writing because you're probably like me. And when you're not writing, you're thinking about it. You're thinking about something to do with. That story or your nonfiction work, but people always, I think your brain's always deep down thinking about something as well that you can possibly put in it. And, like you said, it's wonderful that you've set up, that's how you do it. And that's and that's amazing. And particularly, with nonfiction or fiction, there is, a structure that needs to be followed. And there's that that promise to your readers as well that you need to give and deliver on. And, you have in a nonfiction book, you've got a promise that you need to deliver, that your readers are picking up your book. They know they're going to get X, Y, and Z and same with the romance, and we have key points that we need to make, romance books as well, we've got to have key conflict points, we've got to have, a black moment, a climax, a happy ever after, the meet cute they're all things that readers of romance expect in, you A book. So we've got to make sure that we are hitting those points as well. So we know along the way, even with me as a panther, I know, I need to know what, the conflicts are going to be both, internally and externally, what's going to be the moment they get together, what's going to be the moment they, have the, they walk away and then how are we going to get back together again? So sometimes, that's all I need is those points to, and then I'll just but like I said as well, but it gets through so many drafts, you're on to draft three as well. I think second chance I think went through, nine or 10 different drafts before it actually gets to being where it is and that, has lots of eyes, I had data readers read it and did pretty good editors read it. Every time someone reads it, you get, you get more feedback and you get things that you can, change and, or things that people don't understand. So you've got, you've always got, time and places to actually to change it and meld it so that you know at the end of the day you're publishing the best possible book but you're also promising on, or delivering on what you've promised for your readers as well. I love

claire: 32:14

that. I think that I hear there just it's there's a team effort.

Jo: 32:19

Yeah, absolutely. Like my book. Like I said, I had five, five beta readers. I had a structural editor my publisher read it. I had another editor with the publisher, I had a proofreader with the publisher. And before it was published, I had ARC readers. They read like the advanced reader copies. So there's a lot of people that go. And I think there's a lot of people that have, a bit to play in getting the book out as well. And it's and on the flip side, I'm one of those people with my clients as well. I'm one of their editors or proofreaders and I just feel like the How does mama bear when their books come out, it's Oh my God, I've had like just the smallest part to play in their dreams coming true as well. Because, being on the other side, it's, and even though they might be publishing their, their 10th book or something, they still are proud as punch and they love what they do. And it's Oh, I've helped them, create. Something that their readers love and, a legacy for them and their readers and their families as well. And it's, it gives me the, it gives me the, and that's why I won't let my editing go, because I love that moment as well. I'll always be trying to find that balance between kind of being able to do both. Yeah, I can see how

claire: 33:30

they both are complimentary to each other so well, but also they're fulfilling a part of your desires or fulfilling a part of here's what I'm actually good at. Here's how I can help you make your dream a reality. Bummer, you're only editing romance novels now.

Jo: 33:49

I must admit there

claire: 33:50

was a moment when I started writing my book. And I was like, Oh, maybe I won't do this business book, maybe I'll write a rom com. Yeah, do

Jo: 33:58

it, do it. So I know

claire: 34:01

there's something in there for, there's a dream.

Jo: 34:04

There's a dream. We will stay connected. But oh, let's have a quick chat about, because

claire: 34:10

you have been in both realms, publishing versus self publishing. Yep. What's it look like? What's it, because I know you have a, I should ask you a question. You have a publishing deal and you tell people who are self publishing maybe what's your advice or the benefits of both?

Jo: 34:28

Yeah. And this is a really tricky question because my Christmas novella, which I'm bringing out in July, I'm actually self publishing myself as well. So I'll be, I'll then become what they call a hybrid author because I'll be a traditional publish plus and indie published as well. Look, it's it's funny because, 10 years ago self publishing really wasn't a thing. It wasn't a big thing. It had a bit of a bad rap about it, but the last couple of years, it's just really taken off and it's there are pros and cons with both. And I think, I'll start with the traditional side of it. The pros is that you get a contract and you get it with a publisher who has standing in the industry. People know who they are. Nine times out of 10 that they are good publishers. There are some dodgy ones, but there are some really good publishers. And when you get that contract, they will take the manuscript and they'll do a lot of editing on it. They'll do the proofreading on it. They will do the cover for it. They will do some form of marketing for it. And obviously that, they take the rights of that because whilst they have that for a certain period of time, depending on what the contract is and basically just run with it and do whatever they need to do with it. So you're if you're happy to relinquish. Some of the control of what you're doing, a trade publisher is a great way to go. And for me, once I got my head around the fact that I really wanted to publish it, I wanted to be a Harlequin author because that's, I grew up reading, that kind of book and I thought that we just, to have a romance with Harlequin. It's amazing. So I was totally thrilled with that. The only things that I've struggled with in this realm is a, my contract was for a digital only book initially because I'm a debut author. So I didn't have anything behind me. For them to go, wow, you're a. Brilliant author. We can see that we're going to sell heaps of books that will give you a print run. So my book's a digital book, which has its pros and cons as well, because a lot of romance writers, they read voraciously on their Kindle. They read a book today, finish it today, grab another one tomorrow and off they go. But I've found with the themes in my book as well, they're really I'm being a lot of older readers as well, my mum's kind of, 50, 60, 70, 80s that don't really read on Kindles and they actually want a physical book. So that's been really hard for me to navigate that as well because obviously there isn't a physical book unless they can go to their library to get a large print. Okay. So that's just, that's, how that works as well. With self publishing is great if you're a control freak and you want to do it all yourself. You want to have total control over who your proofreader is, what your cover looks like, how you mark it, where you mark it, where you sell it, how much you price it. If you want to do everything, self publishing is absolutely perfect. It's the way to go. Bye. Bye. And once again, the downside to that is, though, you need to pay then for your own editor. You need to pay for your own proofreader. You need to pay for someone to, do your cover design. So all the things that a traditional publisher would do, you then have to pay for yourself. So there's kind of pros and cons with both. And it really is about looking at, Once again, deep inside where your skills are you willing to learn how to do it because, it's, you can just, upload your file and yeah, you've got a book, but you might not, you probably won't sell any like you do need to have a a release date plan and a marketing plan and a business plan. So you need to still do all of that as well. So there are pros and cons for both. I. I know some really successful self publishing authors because they've built a readership they have a huge newsletter list. They write full time, they might bring out three or four books a year. Their readers are just waiting for the next book and waiting for the next book and waiting for the next book. They're getting new readers on board who are then going back and reading a back list. And that, they're growing really good really good businesses with that as well. Same. It's just, there are pros and cons, and it's really just about, you as an individual what you want to do. And initially I was I was almost at the stage of going, you know what, I think I might just self publish this book. I know it's a good story. I know I've got people who want to buy it. If I don't get a contract, I'll just do it myself. So I was very much heading down that track when I got my contract. But like I said, I've got a couple of smaller Nobelis that the Trad Publisher won't publish won't take on, which is totally fine. So I'll just publish those myself and then I'll have total control of them. So it'd be really interesting to see the different, the, how that kind of is different for me and the different feel. Yeah, I'm excited to hear about that because I

claire: 38:42

think that on one hand, like being a published author, then it might, you've, you, I think there's some level of, in the mix of all the pros and cons, but there's some credibility in there. And also there's a lot of support in getting you out into the world and then maybe create like being a hybrid. around that. I think everything's an experiment, right?

Jo: 39:03

That's right. And it's definitely for me, initially I was going with the credibility was great because, I can say I'm a Harlequin author and not people wouldn't really know, Oh, Harlequin, that's mules and boons and whatever. People recognize that brand as well. So absolutely credibility. Straight up has been amazing. And that's where, down the track, depending on, what happens with my other books, whether I get the contract or not, I can always hinge back on that credibility is that, Harlequin wouldn't have given me an author unless what I write is at a particular level. Yeah. Which is a pretty cool thing. I know that's something that I can hang my head on for the rest of my authoring. Career as well. And, and I'm in that in that circle of Harlequin authors now as well. There are some offices and perks that come with that as well. We, we get, we get some, dinners and things like that as well. So there's, definitely things that come within it. And it's really a, a foot in the door. And my next. Yeah. I, my next dream is really to, have that paperback book and, be able to walk into the airport or into DMX and go, Oh, there's my book. So that's the next, that's the next stream. And that's what I'm hoping for book two. We'll we'll do that. That is what I'm hoping for. I've just got to, I've just got to put, put the hard work in now. And, Just get it done. Yeah. I love

claire: 40:10

it. I was going to ask you what the next frame was. So thank you for sharing that. And just reflecting on what you were saying before is, I think I love the energy of I want to get a publishing deal, but I'm going to do this book regardless. And I think being in that realm of I'm not, I'm hanging my hat just on someone else telling me it's a thing, but give it a crack and I'm going to put it out into the world anyway. I think the energy behind that is, is really powerful and palpable.

Jo: 40:36

Yeah, and it definitely took me a while to overcome that whole imposter syndrome as well, because for a long time I was, and as we do. You'd probably think the same as you know what you're right. Can you go and go it's just shit and I can't write and I'm not as good as the next person and that kind of thing. And I know with my book, I felt that a lot of the time as well, when it probably wasn't really until I got some feedback back from my. Beta readers and even from my structural editor as well, when she's gone, I can really see this has got so much potential, this story. And that was just enough to keep

claire: 41:07

going to see

Jo: 41:08

a little potential. That's right. And because my structural editor is also a published author as well with HarperCollins. So I thought she obviously knows what she's talking about. And I said to her upfront, I said, don't hold back as well. This is a shit story. Please tell me it's a shit story. I'm just like no. It's just it's it has a lot of potential. There's the obsolete, areas where you need to change and improve the structure on the story, which, I took on board. And and I think that's the thing as well, it's really trying to take that feedback on board and trying to work out, is it genuine feedback or is it, is it something that everyone's telling me I need to change, or is it just. Someone's personal opinion as well. But, even the feedback from my beta readers were, was fantastic as well. And I thought, okay I'm feeling really happy now that I've got a story that if I don't get a contract, I would be happy to now publish this myself, which is a big step as well, particularly being your first one. And anything creative as well, there's always going to be, it's not going to be for everybody. Someone who loves smutty fantasy romance would probably pick this up and go, nah, it's not for me. But that, and that's totally fine, we all got our own personal tastes as well. And it will appeal to the readers that it needs to appeal to. Yeah.

claire: 42:11

And I feel, what I hear from you is this solid, grounded sense of you create your own, you create the product, you create the book, you create the course, you create the program, whatever it is you are doing in the world. Yeah. And it's amazing to get validation. It's amazing for people to tell you that they see potential. And really the biggest person who needs to believe and decide that this is worthy and valuable is

Jo: 42:36

you. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think with the award that I got a couple of weeks ago as well, which was for the favorite debut romance author for 2023. And the great thing about, thank you, but the great thing about that was just that it was voted for by readers as well. So it wasn't a committee or, anything like that. It was actually readers of romance who voted that. So that was just such a, once again, a lovely validation that. Obviously I'm on the right track and I've got a voice that people want to hear as well. It's just trying to keep on that with, and I think I'm finding book two is really hard to live up to book one as well, because you want to capture the same essence, but it needs to be a different story in itself. Yeah. I can

claire: 43:16

imagine. I can imagine. The self pressure that you would put on yourself. Yeah. I, we're just aware of the time, babe, so we'll bring it home. One of the big questions that kept popping in my mind is like, how cool that you just have a circle of people that you hang around who are romance friends. Is that

Jo: 43:32

a thing? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. But once again, it also took me a little while to get my little circle of romance, a really close circle of romance friends as well. I was obviously, known in the community and and I love that, we all support each other. We cheer for each other. When someone raises a book, we all, share it because we all know how hard it is to actually get a book to be released. And once again, my cheer, whether you're an Indie author, whether you're a a trade author, whether it's your first book, whether it's your hundred book, we cheer because it's such a big thing, but which is just an amazing community to be in. But I have a couple of writer friends that we called the Wednesday Wonder Women and they actually live in Brisbane. So that was great just to spend some time with them recently. And we chat most days and sometimes it is, we chat widely things and we hope, issues and character names and things like that as well. And we bounce ideas around about, publishing and that kind of thing. And we also, support each other personally, which is great. But we also do things like, we have writing sprints. If I'm on a writing day and my friend is writing, I'm do you want to do some sprints? And we do the 25 minute ones where we just go for 25 minutes and have a break. We support each other through that as well. But it is a great community. And when, I've got a handful of them on my clients as well, which makes it really great. And I think one of the other things has been, community has been a big thing because I've got my romance writing community, but I've also got with the essay women community as well, which is just another community of women who kind of support each other and shout out for each other and that kind of thing. And that's been really important. I think when you're, when you're in your own business and when you're a solo business person and you're at home by yourself and you don't talk to anyone, like I don't talk to anybody during the day, which is probably why I'm here today. It's just, I think it's just really important to have, people who back you up and who will shout for you. But I've also, it's taken me a while to find that community and find those people as well and to, have trust in those people, I've been in some communities where there's been, it hasn't been that great. So I've just gone, it's not for me. Once again, it's come back to what's good for me, what feels good for me. As well yeah, so I'm really blessed to be a part of, a couple of great, women's communities that, yeah, you're blessed

claire: 45:36

and you've chosen that, I think shout out anyone who's listening to this is community is like life force energy to your dreams. Yeah,

Jo: 45:46

Yeah, absolutely. And we just, I thought I was, flicking back to my book as well, set in a small town and I really tried to hone in on that community feel in the book as well, which obviously. Growing up, there's that whole small town vibe and I'm, and, coming out of the grief of my mum's death, it was actually a community of women who helped pull me through as well. I think it's, I really try to, write about that in my stories as well and how, people, groups can band together to help other people out and lift people up. And it's just, yeah, it's probably one of, one of the big things, with my, both my businesses is having that community around you that you can go, help, or you can go, yeah, and it works both ways as well, which is fantastic. Yeah, I feel

claire: 46:28

that. Well done. Thank you so much for being in this conversation with me. I've, I could ask you another hundred questions. We can keep rolling, but I really want to be honoring your time. As we wrap up, I'm going to pull a card from my Dream Maker

Jo: 46:41

deck for you. But

claire: 46:43

can we hook up a way

Jo: 46:45

To put the link for people to purchase your book if you

claire: 46:47

give that to me and we can. Pop it in the show notes and stuff. And when I pop the podcast on socials, we can put a link there as well. Yeah. You can go and have a look and

Jo: 46:56

purchase the book to read. Yeah, that would be great. And look, I'm on, on all the socials. Yeah, I dabble in TikTok and stuff like that, but I'm mostly on Instagram and Facebook. That's where my, most of my readers hang out, so I hang out there as well. And so you can just Google me and I'll come up. Pretty much when you Google me, I'll be popping up. Everywhere. So you've got your SEO sorted.

claire: 47:14

And Instagram, is it Joe Spears romance author? Can

Jo: 47:18

you tell me? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's Joe dot Spears and it's S P E I R S. So it goes against the whole total spelling thing. Yeah, I think underscore romance, underscore author or something like that. So if you put Joe Spears and you'll find it podcast.

claire: 47:33

Yeah, from my instagram as well.

Jo: 47:35

Thank you so much. Thank

claire: 47:38

you. Your biggest takeaway from this

Jo: 47:40

conversation. It's just been great speaking to you and I think it's been like getting that validation as well where you where I'm saying things you're going. Oh, wow. That is, that is great. I can really feel things coming through and I'm going, that's how, I wanted to feel, but so it's great that you can get that vibe from me as well. And it's just been great, chatting to people who are like minded and on similar journeys and, just trying to. To help people and lift people up and, it's been great. So thank you. My, my absolute pleasure. Thank

claire: 48:09

you. All right. Let's see what comes out of

Jo: 48:12

the cards.

claire: 48:16

Oh my God. Okay. I literally just recorded a podcast before and the same card came up. Says, The obstacle is the way, now is not the time to play it safe. Oh. I feel much of this conversation we've had is, having, you've got the vision for the book. Yeah, and sometimes, you talked about the things that have been hard in your life as well. But I think when they get hard, there's an opportunity in there to pivot and move your way through that. Look at what you have created because you didn't let those pivotal moments make you go backwards. You were like, what am I doing with this? How am I turning this? This rough challenging moment into a light forward. That's one thing you can take from the car. Yeah, but I think for anyone who's listening, you make your own. interpretation of that but make your way through, do the brave thing. I, you one day, if you want to write a romance novel, or a nonfiction novel, or create a deck of cards, or put a new program out into the world, I think there's so much in making a decision. And as Joe's you've said so beautifully here, create layers of support, create layers of support and accountability around you. But get super, super clear on who you are and how you want to roll. And yes, take inspiration. From what's out there, but bring it in and figure out how can I do this in a way that's sustainable for me, but honoring of my values as well.

Jo: 49:52

Perfectly said. Thank you so much for being here. everybody. If you guys listen to the podcast and love it.

claire: 50:01

Take a screenshot, tag Joe and I on Instagram. Let us know what your biggest takeaway is and

Jo: 50:07

thanks for being here.